[English] Talking With Zak S. Instead Of Gossiping About Him – Seite 9 – Disputorium

#81 · 31. Januar 2023, 2:32

Zitat von zak am 31. Januar 2023, 2:32 Uhr
I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: he was discredited to any rational reader.

EDIT AFTER THE THREAD IS LOCKED:

Since this thread was apparently locked in an attempt to allow false claims to be spread and not corrected, and I can only edit this comment, not add new ones.

I will put the comments I made after the thread got locked to Der Oger on my blog ( dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com in the comments on the most recent entry )

"

@Der Oger

Well, you continued the discussion, but did not finish it--and one of my abusers apparently locked the conversation. Deplatforming.

You made several points that were incorrect there.As always, you should address them:-I said "I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: the (the abuser, Settembrini) was discredited to any rational reader."You said: "Frankly, no. Those who disliked or liked him before, based on previous interactions, won't likely change their attitude."My obvious answer: then they are not _rational_ rational people don't trust or not trust people because they "like" them--they do it because of a track record of honest behavior. Settembrini's behavior was openly dishonest.

And while Settembrini can make mistakes so long as he doesn't apologize and attempt to fix them: that's dishonest.-"We gossiped about you, and did not slander you...."People on the board committed libel and defamation (slander is spoken). The second you say something _that isn't true about your victim_ you did that.

You also voiced public criticism without talking to the target of the criticism first, which is awful.

So: people on the board did horrible things. That's what's important.

-"And while we participated in deplatforming you, we did not orchestrate it."I don't give a shit: the board did something terrible that no-one anywhere, ever, should do without apologizing and taking steps to fix it.It's not a contest to be -the most terrible- it's simply terrible.-"To compare gossip about a celebrity with an organized attempt to destroy a person's life is comparing starting a brawl with premeditated murder."Well don't start a brawl, either, dumbass.

When you see a problem: you are an adult--talk to the other adult. Even if it seems unpleasant, that is your adult responsibility.-"You are actually expected to not start embarrassing discussions at the dinner table."And yet people do all the time--and refusing to answer is dishonest. That's why they do it.-"of dodging questions and avoiding responsibility has crept more and more into management styles and politics during the last twenty years. As well as how internet forums are administrated and moderated (except this place)."My experience with the forum you invited me to was that it was 100% like all others, complete with 100% explicit "Wall of silence".

Settimbrini literally said they would not explain their actions and then literally locked the thread. Wall of silence intact.You are completely wrong.-"This whole Jocks vs. Nerds High School Culture Thing does not exist in the same manner here (though my experience is limited to hearsay and imported media). I believe social class, the parent's education and ethnic background have a higher influence here."Either my experience during my time in Germany and with Germans was -completely nonrepresentative- and you'll have to find some other explanation for your board's abusive practices or I am right but I don't really care, this is the least important point:Either way Settembrini and other of your fellow board members are abusive pieces of shit who are taking part in a hate campaign.And, again, if you plan to be helpful at all, you need to stop pretending that this is ok.

"

I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: he was discredited to any rational reader.

EDIT AFTER THE THREAD IS LOCKED:

Since this thread was apparently locked in an attempt to allow false claims to be spread and not corrected, and I can only edit this comment, not add new ones.

I will put the comments I made after the thread got locked to Der Oger on my blog ( dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com in the comments on the most recent entry )

"

@Der Oger

Well, you continued the discussion, but did not finish it--and one of my abusers apparently locked the conversation. Deplatforming.

You made several points that were incorrect there.As always, you should address them:-I said "I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: the (the abuser, Settembrini) was discredited to any rational reader."You said: "Frankly, no. Those who disliked or liked him before, based on previous interactions, won't likely change their attitude."My obvious answer: then they are not _rational_ rational people don't trust or not trust people because they "like" them--they do it because of a track record of honest behavior. Settembrini's behavior was openly dishonest.

And while Settembrini can make mistakes so long as he doesn't apologize and attempt to fix them: that's dishonest.-"We gossiped about you, and did not slander you...."People on the board committed libel and defamation (slander is spoken). The second you say something _that isn't true about your victim_ you did that.

You also voiced public criticism without talking to the target of the criticism first, which is awful.

So: people on the board did horrible things. That's what's important.

-"And while we participated in deplatforming you, we did not orchestrate it."I don't give a shit: the board did something terrible that no-one anywhere, ever, should do without apologizing and taking steps to fix it.It's not a contest to be -the most terrible- it's simply terrible.-"To compare gossip about a celebrity with an organized attempt to destroy a person's life is comparing starting a brawl with premeditated murder."Well don't start a brawl, either, dumbass.

When you see a problem: you are an adult--talk to the other adult. Even if it seems unpleasant, that is your adult responsibility.-"You are actually expected to not start embarrassing discussions at the dinner table."And yet people do all the time--and refusing to answer is dishonest. That's why they do it.-"of dodging questions and avoiding responsibility has crept more and more into management styles and politics during the last twenty years. As well as how internet forums are administrated and moderated (except this place)."My experience with the forum you invited me to was that it was 100% like all others, complete with 100% explicit "Wall of silence".

Settimbrini literally said they would not explain their actions and then literally locked the thread. Wall of silence intact.You are completely wrong.-"This whole Jocks vs. Nerds High School Culture Thing does not exist in the same manner here (though my experience is limited to hearsay and imported media). I believe social class, the parent's education and ethnic background have a higher influence here."Either my experience during my time in Germany and with Germans was -completely nonrepresentative- and you'll have to find some other explanation for your board's abusive practices or I am right but I don't really care, this is the least important point:Either way Settembrini and other of your fellow board members are abusive pieces of shit who are taking part in a hate campaign.And, again, if you plan to be helpful at all, you need to stop pretending that this is ok.

"

dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com

#82 · 31. Januar 2023, 8:18

Zitat von Archoangel am 30. Januar 2023, 23:35 Uhr

Zak - you won`t acomplish anything from Settembrini; that´s what I already wrote. For he is a selfish person who does not think he can do anything wrong. He will never apologize. And he will never answer to you in any means satisfying to you - cause it would demolish his view of himself. He is a selfish man, not able to see it. He is selfopinionated, vain, bossy and not able to take criticism. And he thinks of himself as wise and holy.
And it can take years to notice this. Or moments - like now.

As for mine I truly belive he will rot in hell some day for beeing so complacent.

We have lots of this people nowadays here in germany.

"Hell is other people" - Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu

"If people seem slightly stupid, they’re probably just stupid. But if they seem colossally and inexplicably stupid, you probably differ in some kind of basic assumption so fundamental that you didn’t realize you were assuming it, and should poke at the issue until you figure it out." - Scott Alexander, published under CC-BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

#83 · 31. Januar 2023, 17:24

Zitat von Der Oger am 31. Januar 2023, 17:24 Uhr

Zitat von zak am 31. Januar 2023, 2:32 Uhr

I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: he was discredited to any rational reader.

Frankly, no.

Those who disliked or liked him before, based on previous interactions, won't likely change their attitude. I, for my part, won't. He may have made a mistake, or may continue to make it, but it won't fundamentally change my attitude towards him, since I trust him. Okay, you may argue that this little incident would be proof that he cannot be trusted, but it does not eradicate the years of trust he built up. (And you simply do not have this level of trust here because you are relatively unknown. D&D is not as favored in Germany as a RPG platform than in the US or other English-speaking communities.)

Some additional random thoughts.

1 ) Reexamine the header of this thread. We gossiped about you, and did not slander you. I am no lawyer, but there are legal differences. Also, there are exceptions to the legal rules for celebrities - persons of public perception IIRC. We can argue about whether if gossiping makes a person an evil one, or if it does serve a purpose for societies. Like, satire.

Google The Böhmermann Affair for additional context.

And while we participated in deplatforming you, we did not orchestrate it. To compare gossip about a celebrity with an organized attempt to destroy a person's life is comparing starting a brawl with premeditated murder.

2) You are a Veteran of the American Culture War. An Apex Predator of Internet Communication in the English speaking world.

The Right tries to start the CW here, but largely fails. We may share certain cultural roots and influences, but we are different cultures, and diverge in what is acceptable public conduct and how we resolve conflicts. For obvious historical reasons, I might add.

Keeping the volume down has it's own risks, but almost everyone agrees that we should be thankful that the CW does not affect us as it did the US.

They behave totally differently (you can watch this in real time happening now: many people who would be embarrassed to dodge and avoid questions and responsibility at a dinner table are happy to do it here

To point out a cultural difference: You are actually expected to not start embarrassing discussions at the dinner table. (Of course it happens, but follows certain complex rules that may vary from place to place.)

And, anecdotally, the leadership style of "Wall Of Silence", of dodging questions and avoiding responsibility has crept more and more into management styles and politics during the last twenty years. As well as how internet forums are administrated and moderated (except this place).

But I agree on truthfulness having the importance you attribute to it.

Another difference: This whole Jocks vs. Nerds High School Culture Thing does not exist in the same manner here (though my experience is limited to hearsay and imported media). I believe social class, the parent's education and ethnic background have a higher influence here.

Zitat von zak am 31. Januar 2023, 2:32 Uhr

I have achieved what was necessary to achieve: he was discredited to any rational reader.

Frankly, no.

Those who disliked or liked him before, based on previous interactions, won't likely change their attitude. I, for my part, won't. He may have made a mistake, or may continue to make it, but it won't fundamentally change my attitude towards him, since I trust him. Okay, you may argue that this little incident would be proof that he cannot be trusted, but it does not eradicate the years of trust he built up. (And you simply do not have this level of trust here because you are relatively unknown. D&D is not as favored in Germany as a RPG platform than in the US or other English-speaking communities.)

Some additional random thoughts.

1 ) Reexamine the header of this thread. We gossiped about you, and did not slander you. I am no lawyer, but there are legal differences. Also, there are exceptions to the legal rules for celebrities - persons of public perception IIRC. We can argue about whether if gossiping makes a person an evil one, or if it does serve a purpose for societies. Like, satire.

Google The Böhmermann Affair for additional context.

And while we participated in deplatforming you, we did not orchestrate it. To compare gossip about a celebrity with an organized attempt to destroy a person's life is comparing starting a brawl with premeditated murder.

2) You are a Veteran of the American Culture War. An Apex Predator of Internet Communication in the English speaking world.

The Right tries to start the CW here, but largely fails. We may share certain cultural roots and influences, but we are different cultures, and diverge in what is acceptable public conduct and how we resolve conflicts. For obvious historical reasons, I might add.

Keeping the volume down has it's own risks, but almost everyone agrees that we should be thankful that the CW does not affect us as it did the US.

They behave totally differently (you can watch this in real time happening now: many people who would be embarrassed to dodge and avoid questions and responsibility at a dinner table are happy to do it here

To point out a cultural difference: You are actually expected to not start embarrassing discussions at the dinner table. (Of course it happens, but follows certain complex rules that may vary from place to place.)

And, anecdotally, the leadership style of "Wall Of Silence", of dodging questions and avoiding responsibility has crept more and more into management styles and politics during the last twenty years. As well as how internet forums are administrated and moderated (except this place).

But I agree on truthfulness having the importance you attribute to it.

Another difference: This whole Jocks vs. Nerds High School Culture Thing does not exist in the same manner here (though my experience is limited to hearsay and imported media). I believe social class, the parent's education and ethnic background have a higher influence here.

Ärger im Tanelorn? Dann geht es hier zu Ogers Kummerkasten.

#84 · 31. Januar 2023, 18:13

Zitat von Der Oger am 31. Januar 2023, 17:24 Uhr

And while we participated in deplatforming you, we did not orchestrate it.

I am not sure I follow here? How exactly did we deplatform him? I always felt free to write and talk about Zak's work here and can't remember any calls to do otherwise?

"If people seem slightly stupid, they’re probably just stupid. But if they seem colossally and inexplicably stupid, you probably differ in some kind of basic assumption so fundamental that you didn’t realize you were assuming it, and should poke at the issue until you figure it out." - Scott Alexander, published under CC-BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

#85 · 31. Januar 2023, 18:51

OK, Oger, you wanted a thread to talk about Zak or with him. I did not fancy it was mostly about me. Especially not in that manner.

If you, and Zak want to continue discussing me, please look for another spot to do so. You or whoever is wishing me I should rot in hell or never taken seriously again: please go somewhere else with it. The usual place for allegations & lamentations vs Settembrini is usually Tanelorn.net.